Babywearing Twins, Sleep Consultants, and Family Road Tripping with Dave Macdonald – Podcast 112

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Episode 112 of the Dad’s Guide to Twins Podcast Show Notes

Join us as we continue the Father of Twins Interview Series with Dave Macdonald.

Listen as we learn about Dave’s twin journey, what has worked in their home and some of the challenges they have overcome, including:

• Moving during the twin pregnancy
• How moving impacted lifestyle and commute
• A scheduled c-section at 38 weeks gestation
• Transition from hospital to life at home
• Babywearing in the early months
• Time off of work for mom and dad
• Deciding on going back to work vs. staying at home with the twins
• Where their boys slept and why they put them there
• Hiring a sleep consultant to get the kids in a good routine
• Having twins sleeping in the same bed
• Deciding which stroller to purchase for your needs
• Surviving a road trip with young twins
• How keeping a good schedule and structure helps maintain good relationships
• Getting your kids outside to maintain your sanity

Mentioned in this episode

Side Hustling Parents

Transcript

Joe: Hi there, and welcome to the 112th episode of the dad’s guide to twins podcast. This is Joe Rawlinson. As always you can find me on the web at twindadpodcast.com where you’ll find much more information on having and raising twins, along with the show notes and transcript for this and all previous podcast episodes. If you stick around til the end of the podcast today, I’ll let you know how you can get a free copy of my first book: The Dad’s Guide to Twins. In case you missed the last episode, I want you to go back and listen at twindadpodcast.com where I share how to keep a light perspective on your twin journey, carry a light at the end of the tunnel as you go through the challenges that you’re facing right now. Well today on the podcast we are continuing our father of twins interview series with fellow twin dad Dave Macdonald. Let’s jump right into that interview about his experiences. On the show today I’d like to welcome fellow father of twins Dave Macdonald. From Vancouver, Canada. Dave welcome to the show.

Dave: Thanks Joe.

Joe: I’m glad you could be with us to share some of your experience as a father of twins. If you could just give us a quick view of your family right now, and then we’ll kind of rewind and jump back to the beginning.

Dave: We have 2 boys, now 2 and 2 months, so that’s 26 months. I don’t know at what point you stop measuring it in months versus years so they’re 2 years and 2 months now and that’s the 4 of us.

Joe: Let’s jump back to when you found out that you were having twins. Tell us about that experience and some of the thoughts and emotions that you had.

Dave: Well we found out during an ultrasound appointment, and it was, I don’t know if it’s the clinic we were at or whatnot but the ultrasound technician I don’t think was used to delivering the good news that people are having twins. And as he was showing us the baby he started to back away from the machine a little bit, and then he mumbled and that’s another baby, and then he took a step away from us and then he saw that we were smiling and happy and excited and he came over and gave us a hug he was so happy that we were excited. So it was a great experience finding out and then that cascaded everything from needing to move because our place was only big enough for what we thought would be one child for maybe a year or so but that accelerated things and we decided to move back closer to family, which was a great decision. And yea, that was sort of how it all got rolling and it feels like it was just yesterday.

Joe: Yea, time does speed up definitely. How far long in the pregnancy were you when you found out it was gonna be twins?

Dave: Maybe 8 weeks or so?

Joe: Ok so really early.

Dave: Yea yea, very early. It wasn’t a sudden surprise, we had time to plan.

Joe: We found out about 8 weeks as well, it was the first visit for my wife for the pregnancy, first ultrasound, so it gave us more time to calm down and then get started on our preparations. So you mentioned having to move, that was kinda in the works but you had to accelerate that. Tell us about those changes of location and how you went about moving and still preparing for the twins.

Dave: Well you know we lived in this really funky are in Vancouver, which is great. Its called commercial drive, people can look it up online, the drive. It’s a great area, its like a little bit of Little Italy, with their large first nation population, a lot of culture. You know, everything from Mohawks and fancy clothes and fancy cars to little mopeds and stuff and handmade cars. It’s a really cool little area and we were really excited about being able to start our family there, and once we found out it was twins it was, um our 1-bedroom apartment wasn’t gonna hold us anymore and we needed to find a little bit more space. So we found out that we could get for the same rate we were renting we could move a little bit further out of the city which was closer to our moms, and get a 2-bedroom place which was a great fit and we did and we’re in the same place now. It’s still a condo, we’ve got a lot of condos and apartments all throughout this part of Vancouver. Just the population density and whatnot, not a lot of people buying houses and that kind of thing these days for families, and yea it’s been absolutely wonderful. It’s been- it was just enough space, and we’re starting to feel a pinch now after a couple of years. You know, more toys, more running around and that sort of thing. So we’re moving a little further from the city again but all-in-all it was a good move and being close to family is always a wonderful thing.

Joe: That’s right. Yea if you have to move, you might as well move closer to people who people who can help you out. That’s for sure.

Dave: Exactly. We are actually equal distance from both of our moms, and that made all the difference, you know. If we stayed where we were living in Vancouver we wouldn’t have had any family visitors on a very regular basis, it would have been a special trip for people whereas now you know we’re just in the extended pars of their community. So it’s easy to get lots of visitors, grandmas are visiting pretty much one a week each which is great.

Joe: That is good. How much time did you have once you moved in before the twins arrived?

Dave: Well we moved in in August of 2013 and they- basically late August- and they were born in early January. So we had a good amount of time to settle in and get used t being here. And get used to my new commute, which was no longer a 20-minute bike ride it was an hour on the train, but-

Joe: Yea that’s a different commute to get used to.

Dave: Yea.

Joe: Did mom or babies have any health issues during the pregnancy?

Dave: No, you know it was other than general size and pains and aches related to size and whatnot it was all pretty smooth. You know I remember I read your book probably it was July or August when I finally picked it up and read it. We were on a trip and I read about the NICU for the first time and I thought: I need to prepare myself for that kind of situation. Compared to some of the stories I’ve read about and heard we’ve had pretty smooth sailing all the way through, which was great. They stayed in until 38 weeks, we had to pry them out. And they came out with combined 14 pounds, so.

Joe: That’s a great birth weight.

Dave: Yea

Joe: So they were born at 38 weeks, now you say you had to pry them out. Tell us about the birth experience. Was it scheduled or induced, or how did that go down.

Dave: It was scheduled. It was scheduled and it was a surgical C-section and it was pretty smooth in itself. I got to be there the whole time which was really great. One of the things fortunate about us living in an urban center is that we were able to get into the women’s and children’s hospital. In this case the kids were born in the women’s portion of the hospital. It was such excellent case, and to be around people who are around complicated situations and high-risk situations all the time, it was actually really really nice not to feel like we were special or singled out just for being parents of twins or being the higher risk for various things. It was really really comfortable from that perspective.

Joe: So y’all knew that you were gonna have a C-section at 38 weeks, it was part of the plan?

Dave: Things were pretty up in the air, I mean we knew what our doctor recommended was how far she thought we should go and of course the kids were big and that sort of thing. So we did schedule it and then they lasted that long, so and that’s how it went

Joe: So you mention that they did not have any time in the NICU. They just came home when mom was ready, is that correct?

Dave: Yea, we were in the hospital for 5 days, well 5 nights and 6 days I guess. And that was just general recovery, they had some low blood sugar, that kind of thing. So we monitored that for a little while and yea, once everybody was ready we just came home and got to work. You know, I was fortunate to have time off at the time so it was nice to be able to be home and I’m an accountant so the kids were- I was wearing them in wraps while doing background conciliation and that kind of thing for clients and that was kinda fun. For about 6 weeks I was able to stay home and get to know then and get used to setting up routines and that kind of thing.

Joe: That’s wonderful. Are your boys fraternal or identical?

Dave: They’re fraternal.

Joe: They are fraternal, ok.

Dave: Yea, it takes about am hour and a half of being with them before you believe it but, yea, they’re fraternal.

Joe: That’s great. Did you need any tricks visually to tell them apart when they were infants, or were they distinct enough to do that?

Dave: They were pretty distinct, and such distinct behaviors that if you see them move or talk or whatever it’s pretty easy to tell. But we did paint a toenail which helped the grandparents and helped us in our sleep-deprived states as well, so.

Joe: Yea, anything you can do when you’re sleep deprived to help yourself out is well worth it.

Dave: Absolutely.

Joe: So you mention that you wore the babies like in a wrap. Can you talk a little bit about that, like how you were able to hold both of them in those early weeks?

Dave: Yea, so baby wearing is quite the thing. We had no idea before having kids and I don’t know if it’s the same in other cities or whatnot. But the baby wearing community here is quite a large community and, you know, whether you have a hand-woven wrap or a different kind of wrap, a wrap from a different part of the world, different sizes, different patterns, all kinds of things. And wraps gain their notoriety from people who are fans you know, and I’m interested in it on the periphery and it’s a great way to get the kids around. So we were able to wear them both at one time. And for me I was typically- I was never brave enough to wear one on my back but I was the only one who was not willing to do that. So sometimes they were worn front and back, I would wear them both on my front, and really get them pretty much anywhere. And they get to stay warm, the winters are not as bad as maybe people think up here but they’re still cold, and sometimes there’s snow, so having them close meant that we could take them out even when they were born in January and not have to worry about them being too cold and that sort of thing. So it’s a really easy way to get them around

Joe: Yea, we ended up wearing just like one at a time, like my wife would wear one and then I would wear one. But we never had the opportunity or the gear to master dual carrying.

Dave: Yea it’s quite the thing. You know, we ended up with a bunch of wraps because my partner is a fan of the wraps. But we also ended up with a few carriers, which are really great for me when I was on my own or really not sure about wrapping. It’s also great for the grandmas who weren’t too sure about how to wrap them up because they weren’t doing it as frequently, so the carriers were also wonderful. Which sometimes we would do front and back with the carriers but other times we would just carry one with one of those.

Joe: You mentioned getting 6 weeks off of work and having some flexibility to work. What kind of work arrangement did your partner have as you transitioned to having twins?

Dave: Well she left work on a sick leave, just because getting to work was quite a hardship which in Canada we have employment insurance for that. Not sure what the situation is in other places. But we get a certain amount of employment insurance for sick leave up to 4 months and she qualified for that. And then after that it was maternity leave which is the same benefits. And I can also quality for those, in which case she wouldn’t have qualified at the time. But its 52 weeks of that so we ended up with about 15 months of employment insurance income. And then after that 15 months the big question came up of return to work or send the kids to daycare? And we decided that instead of returning to work and paying for daycare, that it was gonna be, for the amount of income we would have received it was worth it to spend a little bit more time with the kids for at least the first year or year and a half.

Joe: Yea, that’s a good decision. I hear that very frequently is the cost of daycare very quickly reached what you would be making- or one person would be making in income. it’s not worth it to work full time just to pay for a full time daycare.

Dave: Yea, we’ve got up here we can write off a certain amount- I think its 7,000 dollars per child this year- of daycare per year, which is great. But you don’t get that cash until the start of the next year when you file your taxes. So from a cash flow perspective it’s still a pain to do that even though in the end it might work itself out to some degree.

Joe: Both of your parents live relatively close. Did they come and stay with you in your home after the twins were born or did they just come and go to help as needed?

Dave: My partner’s mom stayed with us for a period of time. Maybe a few days at a time and sometimes there was the odd overnight particularly, we got the odd break to sleep through the night. Normally we would take turns, or it was so-and-so’s night, or we’d each take half a night or that kind of thing. But every once in a while we’d have somebody over to help us take a break and that was wonderful.

Joe: Yes, when you’re running on empty right, its great to have a night’s worth of sleep. What surprised you the most when you brought your boys home?

Dave: You know; it was that feeling of walking through eh door is different from being in the hospital. You walk in the door and you think well this is it, you know this is the family and now we’re moving forward as the family unit. And that feeling of responsibility and that feeling of having to be accountable for that was the thing that I wasn’t expecting. So that was a big surprise on the inside. Externally, you know, just the overwhelming support from all of our friends and family and working networks and whatnot, just the outpouring of people that were interested in hearing what was going on and how it was going, that was a big surprise. Because my family has typically been- we kinda kept to ourselves a little bit, we’re a little quieter, a little bit more reserved so it was a bit overwhelming to start. But we settled in.

Joe: Were the boys sleeping in their own room or were they in the master bedroom with you?

Dave: We didn’t do co-sleeping in our bedroom, we thought that our bedroom might want to be a sacred space where we might actually get some rest from time to time and take some shifts and stuff. So it started out that we took turns and one of us would sleep in the living room with them, and they would sleep together in a playpen, in a raised playpen. And that worked very well for a period of time. But what was really interesting is that I had coffee with a friend of mine who recently had a baby and well it was about a year and a half old, and he said that 6 months before they had to hire a sleep consultant because they were going absolutely crazy. Their child was sleeping for 1 hour a night, waking up, having a tantrum, then falling back asleep for 20 minutes so they never left that sleep deprived state that, when I look back on it, it lasted maybe 3 months. So he told me that they hired a sleep consultant. And he told me his story and I thought well that can’t be us ever, there’s just no way. With 2 of them we just cant afford that level of sleep deprivation or whatnot. We ended up hiring a sleep consultant- the same one he recommended- and she told us that it was a good idea to get hem used to being in their own room right from the start, and getting them not so much sleep trained but on a good sleep schedule and on a good routine. And what we found was that in our method of sleeping with the kids in the living room and that kind of thing we were actually sleep depriving them, and they totally changed personalities form the time we put them into their own room and let them get some sleep, because we weren’t waking them up, we weren’t maybe bumping the playpen, they didn’t have the cat around, they didn’t have somebody wandering into the kitchen, that kind of thing. And they didn’t have lights coming on, so they ended up actually catching up on their sleep and their personalities just evolved within a day and a half. They were just totally different people, which was great. And from that point on they slept in the same crib for 3 months, then they started sleeping on top of each other so we had to get them separate cribs. And now they’re back in the same twin bed together. We took the sides off the crib then we just find them sleeping in the same crib so we thought well let’s just get them one bed. And that seemed to work out so far.

Joe: Yea our girls have done though that phase too of sleeping in the same bed. Just like you they started in the crib together and then they started interfering with each other, basically. I think actually we were woken up in the middle of the night because one of our girls actually punched the other girl in the face in the crib. Like ok, lets do separate cribs and then for a couple years I think they were in the same bed, and now they’re in their own beds. So it’s interesting to see the twin dynamic between them of how comfortable they are in each other’s presence basically.

Dave: Yea, right in each other’s spaces. These two, they’ll run into each other and they’ll basically rugby tackle each other and then they’ll run around in a circle attached, they’ll fall down each of them, one of them collapsing on top of the other and then they’ll start laughing about it. And I thought if that was anybody else other than their twin brother it would be a totally different reaction.

Joe: That’s right. Is there any other baby products that you found very helpful in those early months or the first couple years now with your twins?

Dave: Yea, you know looking back I often talk to other twin dads about this or people having kids in general, and you know I’ve realized that there were 3 things that we really had to worry about in addition to the basics, food and shelter and that sort of thing, was logistics. You now making sure you’ve got the right tools to go from A to B. A place to change the kids and a method of changing them that keeps them comfortable and dry and whatnot. And then the other one is sleeping: making sure they’ve got a place to sleep that’s safe and conducive to actually having a good sleep. If you generally have those things covered in addition to having food and shelter you’ve got a pretty good setup. And so if people think about what kind of car they have and how a car seat is gonna fit, making sure that they’ve got a car seat that is gonna be good for a certain size that they’re comfortable with, because they’re gonna have to buy a new one eventually. And making sure they’re buying the right one. So those are the sort of considerations we’ve got. And the other ones are not a lot of people necessarily have cars here. We rely on public transit quite extensively so getting kids on the bus you don’t necessarily have that large big stroller that you can go jogging with on the mountainside. You might wan to have something that’s more streamlines so you can actually get in onto the bus. So people have to think really carefully about how they’re actually gonna get from A to B, how they’re gonna get to the grocery store and, if they’re taking the child with them, what that journey looks like. And they can find the right thing that’s gonna get them from the home to where they need to go.

Joe: Yea those are great considerations. Think through your daily logistics, and where you’re gonna go and what you’re gonna be doing with twins and then get the right gear that will make your life easier doing those tasks. Which is the scenario you described, so its definitely good things to consider. Is there something you wished you had known about twins before they arrived?

Dave: I don’t think so =, actually, you know I kinda feel like I did a lot of research, I talked to- I was fortunate enough o have a friend of mine from years before that I knew had twins. And they had a different situation where they had an older child and they had twins. So we were having our first 2 so I knew that whatever they went through ours would probably be a little easier if all went well. So I listened very closely to what he had to say. You know I looked up different bogs and resources, looked at your book, and kinda put everything together. And what I found was that getting all of the foundational stuff in place, like those logistical items, and making sure that we move to a place that we can be comfortable in, I knew that we had the support. You know, what you said in your book about making sure that if somebody asks you if they can offer any help, hold them accountable and write it down. And if they offer to make some food or something or you have the opportunity to ask somebody for some frozen food that you could maybe throw in the slow cooker at some point, get that going. So we did all of those things, we had all the logistical support and I found that by doing all of that stuff I was actually able to be there for the kinds and for my partner a lot more. Just being able to pay attention without having to worry about how are we gonna get from A to B, it’s such a pain you know getting the kids dressed up and into this car seat that doesn’t quite work for us or something like that. All those considerations just kind of disappeared. So we actually did a really good job of preparing so we could just be in the moment with them. Which is probably I think the most important thing, just being able to be there for them, for the moment.

Joe: That’s one of the benefits of getting the preparation in place, is you can focus on your babies and enjoying those experiences. What’s the most frequent question that people ask you about your twins?

Dave: The first one is: are they twins? You know, that’s always the first one. And sometime is say yes and move on and sometimes it’s fun to kinda mess with people a little bit and that’s just how it goes. So there’s the are they twins, and there’s the are they identical. You know we don’t have boy girl, so we don’t have to give people funny looks or anything. Not that its anyone’s business, but it’s an easy question to answer so that one comes up quite a bit. But you know, not a day goes by where you don’t hear double trouble and all of those same clichés that people like to throw out there. It just speaks to how novel twins are. I remember one day we went to the aquarium, we actually saw 3 other sets of twins that were there. And all different ages, and it was really funny because the kids were all looking at each other after seeing kids that were the exact same age and looking relatively the same and they were all eying each other up. So it was even novel for them, and just kinda appreciate that it’s human nature to be asking questions of strangers with twins in public I guess.

Joe: That’s right, it’s part of the fun of being a twin parent, or being a twin it’s easy to get that attention. We found that as our girls get older there’s less and less- I guess it’s not as noticeable, you know, because they dress very differently or they have very distinct behaviors or they’re not side-by-side in a stroller, for example. And so it’s kinda fun to enjoy that attention while it lasts, because it starts to fade a little bit over time. Have you traveled with your kids on a family vacation?

Dave: Just road trips, I’m not brave enough to get on a plane with them. You know, getting in the car and going and visiting family and whatnot, and driving maybe 500 kilometers or I guess it’s 300 miles or so. You know, its not, that’s pretty much as far as we’ve gone with them so far. We’re plotting another road trip with them this summer, and that’ll be interesting because they’ll be potty trained by then, which means probably more stops than we’re used to and wondering how far we’ll get from A to B. But I’ve read a lot of blogs and talk to a lot of people who travel on a regular basis with their families, and it seems that it’s a bit of a crap shoot with how it happens when you get on that plane. And I’m just not brave enough to do it.

Joe: Well you’re doing good field tests there with road trips. If you can figure out things that work in the car, you can use a lot of that in the airplane as well. Have you found anything that’s worked great on the road trips you’ve taken so far that have helped keep them occupied, or…

Dave: We do a lot of singing, the kids are really musically inclined so we do a lot of singing and play a lot of music. And you know it’s beautiful here, they love trees, they love mountains, so oddly enough those don’t get boring over the course of a 5-hour road trip. So they’re often pretty interested in what’s going on around them. And they also sleep in the car, which is very very helpful.

Joe: What’s something that you have found helpful in strengthening or maintaining the relationship you have with your partner as you’ve gone through the pregnancy and now into raising twins.

Dave: Well I think we’re really structured. Our sleep consultant gave us the sleeping schedule, the eating schedule, and all of those things that we needed to follow. And even though we’re sort of off the- we still have routine but we don’t have that strict schedule anymore now that they’re older- but we still worked in, we have every 3 or 4 weeks we’re sitting down and doing the next month’s schedule, figuring out when our time together is, we have regular meetings to talk about budgets and our relationships and goals and dreams, checking in on some of the craziness we might have missed over the course of a week, and that sort of thing. So we’re having really structured communication times. Which, it sounds- structuring things like a relationship which was probably something that started out quite spontaneous and whatnot, it sounds a little crazy but it’s something that works out really really well. You now, giving that opportunity for people to be heard I think is one of the most important things that anybody really wants. And when you’ve got 2 screaming kids and just 2 animated children running around like crazy, and then there’s the job and maintaining the household and that sort of thing. Providing an opportunity to really listen to each other is the thing we’ve created, and what that’s led to is that just by hearing each other a little bit more we are able to work in a little bit more of that spontaneity because our expectations are clear, and that’s made a pretty big difference.

Joe: I like that tip about scheduling time to talk about things cause then you know you have that outlet and you can talk through the challenges and things that are going on and some things don’t kind of fester or build up.

Dave: There’s definitely that aspect, and then there’s also the, you know, you can park things as well. If you know that you have a meeting coming up on Tuesday or Thursday, you may not have to ask the question that totally distracts from what’s happening. So if somebody really is juggling 2 kids in the living room and trying to get them herded at the table, you don’t have to say “hey do you want to go out for dinner with our friends in 10 days?” You can file it in your head and be like ok we’ve got our meeting coming up and I’ll ask then, because I’ll probably get a difference response that I’d like than if I ask right now.

Joe: So your boys are a little over 2 now, what do you find is working right now with parenting your twins?

Dave: Now that the weather is starting to turn nice- you know, it’s springtime now, getting them outside is something that is really key. Living in a condo we don’t have a yard or anything like that, so making sure that we get hem out on a regular basis is important. But they’re at this stage right now where they’re genuinely interested in all the things that we’re doing. You know, I take transit to work, I take the bus and then I take a train into downtown, and they’re pretty sure that everybody goes to work on a bus and that’s just how it is. So getting them engaged in how we’re getting around, what our daily lives are like, letting them help us in the kitchen, and letting them absorb as much of our lives as they’re interested in takin in is something that I think is very helpful. Then there’s music. They’re both into music and all kinds of music, so they’re getting appreciations for different cultures, different sounds, different people, and different instruments. So those 2 things combined I think is keeping them pretty well balanced, although we’re starting to venture into those terrible 2s now I think, so we’ll see how it goes.

Joe: Wonderful that they’re young and inquisitive minds, and then all the things that we adults have gotten kinda jaded and forgotten how cool everything around us, and then to see that again through their eyes and then help foster that education and experiences. It’s great that you’re taking advantage of that. Now in addition to working and taking care of your family, you also have an interesting project going on on the side, side hustling parents. Why don’t you tell me a little bit about that project and what’s going on there.

Dave: We started sidehustlingparents.com. The idea came about over the past year I guess when we first faced that decision about whether we should both return to work, or someone should stay home or what that should look like and we sorta soft-watched it over the past couple of months and now we’re really starting to get some momentum and get it going. But it really is meant to help parents figure out the answer to that question, for what works for them. You know, should I be returning to work, should I be returning to work at the job I previously had, is there something else I can be doing that provides a better work-life balance but doesn’t necessarily sacrifice the income. And so what the idea is is really to be sharing potential side job opportunities or potential jobs that one can do from home that you can operate say when the kids are sleeping or during the evening time. And its really about if you can turn that time you might spend watching TV after the kinds go to bed into 10, 15, 20 thousand dollars a year. It’s a pretty good idea but a lot of people don’t know where to start, and they don’t necessarily know what they’re capable of. So looking at how parents can evaluate their own skills, figure out how to reframe what they already know and what they do to get jobs that they might not have thought that they’d get before. It’s really about helping people find that balance and get more out of their jobs to enjoy their families.

Joe: That’s a great need that we have as parents, because we have to juggle the responsibility of parenting and being providers for our families and we’re oftentimes torn between the work that will provide for our family and spending time with out family. And there are alternatives out there that don’t follow the standard traditional ways that things have always been done, so that’s an exciting opportunity. That you’re working on there.

Dave: Even my friends that I thought I knew pretty well are sharing a bit of their journeys with me, and it’s really interesting to hear that I didn’t realize that they were facing the same challenges and questions that we had faced, and they’re really appreciative of some of the insights and outlets that we’ve put out so far, and I’m hoping that we can grow that and help more folks.

Joe: Well Dave, thank you so much for sharing your twin journey with us. We really appreciate it.

Dave: Thanks Joe, it was a lot of fun.

Joe: I hope you enjoyed that interview with Dave, we extracted some tips and tricks you can use in your twin journey. Again, a link to his website and information in the show notes at twindadpodcast.com. And to thank you for listening to the end, as promised you can get a free audiobook version of my Dad’s Guide to Twins book by visiting freetwinbook.com. Once again, that’s freetwinbook.com. Thank you so much for listening, and I’ll see you next time.

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