Episode 151 of the Dad’s Guide to Twins Podcast Show Notes
We continue our father of twins interview series with Matt Gray, father of fraternal twin girls.
Listen as we explore his twin journey, including:
- When initial ultrasound results of a singleton changed later to twins!
- Knowing what to expect with twins as they already ran in the family
- What happened when mom goes into preterm labor at 24 weeks of the pregnancy
- Extended stay for the parents at the hospital post-delivery
- Realizing that the odds of your twins making it out alive are really small
- Surviving the mental game of being a dad of micro-preemies
- Daily interactions with twins in the NICU
- The ups and downs of 101 and 106 days in the NICU
- Mixed emotions of bringing home one of the babies
- Things parents worry about after bringing NICU babies home
- Monitoring babies’ health once they are home
- Overcoming feeding challenges of premature twins
- Lingering developmental issues
- Getting the family dogs ready for twins
- Day in the life schedule of 19 month olds
- Finding a nanny for twins
Joe: Hello everybody and welcome to the 151st episode of the Dad’s Guide to Twins Podcast. This is Joe Rawlinson. As always, you can find me on the web at TwinDadPodcast.com where you’ll find the transcript for this Podcast episode and all previous Podcast episodes.
Today’s show is brought to you by my first book, Dad’s Guide to Twins: How to Survive the Twin Pregnancy and Prepare for Your Twins. You can get a free audiobook version of that book at freetwinbook.com. Once again, that’s freetwinbook.com.
Today we are continuing our father of twins interview series with fellow father of twins, Matt Gray. Let’s jump right in to that interview. Today I’d like to welcome to the show Matt Gray, fellow father of twins. Welcome to the show, Matt.
Matt: Glad I could join you.
Joe: Matt, How old are your twins right now, and what’s the most exciting part of this age?
Matt: They’re approximately 19 months, right now. I guess in about a week, they’ll be 19 months. Right now, it’s just learning and seeing them develop and then see new things, and get excited over learning something new. That’s really the best part about this age, that’s for sure.
Joe: What are some of those new things that they’re learning?
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Matt: One of the girls has just really gotten into books recently. She’s grabbing at every book she can and wants to come over and have you read it to her, have you show it to her. That’s been awesome because we didn’t have that engagement, early on. Our other girl, she’s a thinker. She loves to sit in front of a toy and kind of just learn how the toy works, and play with it. That’s just fun because she sits and figures it out.
Joe: Excellent. Are your girls identical or are they fraternal?
Matt: Fraternal, although they look more and more alike every week, I think.
Joe: So, lets rewind. What was your family situation like back when you found out you were having twins? How was that experience?
Matt: It was scary, that’s for sure. My wife and I had been married about a year, or so. She gave me a call one day. Obviously she was pregnant, and we went in. The first ultrasound I jokingly said, “There’s only one in there. Right?” The ultrasound tech told me, “Yeah, just one.” So, I’m like, “Yeah, good to go.” That was about the eight week mark. Then I kind of said that jokingly because my sister has twins, so I didn’t want to have two sets, necessarily. Fast forward about a month, and we go for the 12 week ultrasound, or the real ultrasound, as I call it. I jokingly ask the ultrasound tech, different one this time, “Still only one baby in there. Right?” She looked at me dead-straight in the face and said, “No. You’re having twins.” Dumbfounded, I said, “You’re joking. Right?” She said, “No. I can’t joke about that.” Then I didn’t know what to say. My wife and I just looked at each other and we’re like, “Oh, crap. I guess we’re having twins.” We kind of just got together, and I said, “We gotta do this thing.” Called our families and broke the news to them. My family was obliviously excited, because we already have one set of twins, like I said, with my sister. Her Mom’s excited because she gets to see two more grandkids, right away. A lot of excitement, and a lot of nervousness, as well.
Joe: Having had your sister, had already had twins, you kind of had some insight into what this adventure would be like. Did you have some sort of concerns based on what you’d already heard your sister had gone through?
Matt: My sister had twin boys. They were born at 31 weeks, partially due to preeclampsia. Going in with twins I knew obviously, there was an elevated risk of having an early birth. Just some of the medical complications that can come from having twins, in general. Everything is just more heightened alert, more awareness. I knew my wife was going to go through a lot more changes as far as she got further along. She’s going to get bigger. It wasn’t going to be the same pregnancy that a singleton would have. We went into it knowing there were some risks. We kind of threw the original birthing plan out the window.
Joe: What complications did come your way, during the pregnancy?
(RELATED: Expecting twins? Avoid these 4 critical mistakes expectant twin parents make.)
Matt: Kaitlin initially had a lot of extra pain. She sometimes just felt a little bit off. But at 24 weeks she woke up after her birthday dinner really the next morning, really early and she wasn’t feeling great. She came downstairs about 05:30 in the morning. She had to work that morning, and we also had an ultrasound scheduled for that morning. She came down and all of sudden she noticed she was spotting. I came downstairs and didn’t know really exactly what to do, but we called … At this point, it was probably 07:00. We called the nurse’s hotline. They said, lets come in now and so we did. We got to the hospital, probably around 08:00. At that point, she had actually started preterm labor.
We didn’t know what to expect. When we got in, they gave her a shot, a steroid to develop the lungs, as quickly as possible. Then another dose of … I forget what it was, now but … magnesium. A dose of magnesium to help slow the labor, and if at all possible, to stop the labor. That day, our goal was get six hours at least, and hope that the steroids can kick in and help develop the lungs, if at all possible. While we’re in there, that morning, I ask, “If we can stop the labor, what’s next?” Ultimately the doctor said, “You’re here until she has the baby.” We hunkered down, and made it to six hours, then hour seven, hour eight. About twelve hours later, it was go time. She had to go in and she delivered two little girls.
I wish I could say what the complications were as far as what caused it, but she was healthy. She was a good eater. She exercised properly. Had no medical conditions that we were aware of. She just had early, preterm labor. It was kind of unfortunate, but at the same time, we kind of anticipated something was going to happen, early. We just didn’t expect so early. At 08:30 that night we had two little miracles born, weighing about 1 pound, 6 ounces each.
Joe: That’s quite the turnaround from the day before and probably the mindset you had. Having them so early and expecting that there’d still be weeks to get ready, what were some of the things that you did not have ready, when they were born?
Matt: Didn’t have anything ready at all. I’d assembled the crib previously, but as far as the room goes, it wasn’t really put together that well. Both cribs were put together and a dresser, but we didn’t have obviously any clothes, or diapers, things like that. Knowing they were so early, early on it was, you didn’t think about what you needed. You thought about just getting through the next day.
Kaitlin had the C-section, so she couldn’t do much. We’re very fortunate where we live in Madison, to have some really great healthcare. The hospital we were at actually had Ronald McDonald suites, built in the hospital. For the first couple of weeks of the girl’s, they were alive, we actually got to stay in the hospital. We’d eat there, we slept there, showered there, up and down the room to their room, or into the NICU. We didn’t need anything, right away because they weren’t coming home, obviously. Let’s just get through the next day, the next couple of hours and just keep going. Then they had to get stronger and healthier and grow.
Our mindset wasn’t getting or acquiring the things we needed. While we were there, we needed a stroller, a double stroller. Somebody was kind enough, they had heard our story and actually gifted us a double stroller, which was fantastic. Ultimately, these girls come home and they’re going to be fragile to give the right vehicle. Are they going to come home on special … on oxygen, or anything like that. What we need would be bigger because of that. Then you just slow yourself down and remember, take a day at a time. Let’s just get through the next day. As it gets closer to the time they come home, you start to have to think about that stuff a little bit more.
Joe: When they first went into the NICU, were the doctors able to give you any kind of projections or estimates of how long they would need to be there? Or was it really just a day by day experience?
(RELATED: Expecting twins? Avoid these 4 critical mistakes expectant twin parents make.)
Matt: Initially, we didn’t even ask. We wanted to make sure they got through the next day before we worried about them even coming home. We knew it was going to be a long, long haul. Partially because my sister had, had her twins in the NICU and I’d know just from that experience that even at 31 weeks, while that’s a lot further along than our girls, they typically didn’t get to go home until their actual due date. Coming home, in the first couple of day, that wasn’t even a question. It’s, “Are they going to survive?” The doctors were open and honest with us. Our girls were strong from the get go. They did a fantastic job and obviously they’re still here. They did survive. They didn’t need to tell us much.
I will say one of the worst things, and decisions I made was I think the third night in the hospital. This is when we actually got moved into the Ronald McDonald suites. I read a few pages from a book, that they’d given us. One of the first few pages that had statistics of survival rates of micro preemies. What you can expect as they come home. That was the worst decision I could have had, because the survival rates were very low. Even if they did come home, they were going to have some sort of difficulty based off the numbers. That was a bad idea so early on. As I got further along in the NICU stay, then you can start to ask some of those questions. What’s the likelihood of having a mental handicap, or some other issue that goes on? Definitely not good reading the first few days.
Joe: How did you mentally overcome that? It could possible be very depressing news to learn those statistics. How did you keep kind of positive outlook with your girls in the NICU?
Matt: I’m just a generally very happy person, typically. I just blocked it out. I forced myself to. I started talking about other things with the nurses. I talked about success stories. I read success stories of other families and then how they overcame things. You just force yourself and put yourself in a different mindset, because you can’t have a negative attitude, when you’re in the NICU. It could be a bad day, but you have to be positive. I really feel your child feeds off that. So if you’re positive, you have a good attitude and you’re happy and upbeat, I think they can feel that. It helps in some way, shape or form. Helps them get through and remain strong.
Joe: How were you able to interact with your girls while they were in the NICU.
Matt: The first week, I want to say, week and a half, you go in and talk to them. We were in the room, because we were at the hospital, from the time they got up, minus lunch or dinner, until ten o’clock at night. You’re in there. You talk to them. You read to them. The nursing staff and the doctors were very good about helping us take charge. When it came to us feeling comfortable with it, it was doing the diaper changes, taking the temperature. It was okay to stick your hand in and hold their little, tiny hands. For the first couple of weeks, we did that.
I think it was the two week mark roughly, was the first time that my wife got to do skin to skin with them. First one, then the other, which is vitally important for parents to do with their child, especially mothers. I made sure that she got the first couple of cracks at it, because again, it’s so important. Shortly after that, I took my turn because I wanted some too. That’s really it. While they’re in the isolette on oxygen, or on a ventilator, you don’t get a ton of time to actually hold your child like a normal newborn. A lot of it’s scheduled based off how their stats are for the day. If they’re having a rough day, maybe it’s better to leave them in. Let them get healthy. Let them learn to breathe better that day, before you try and take them out. That’s how we did it. Gosh, it wasn’t until the four week mark probably that we did the first bath. I shouldn’t say bath. Until we started wiping them down and doing the sponge baths, which was fun too.
Joe: You mentioned that you were in the Ronald McDonald house for three weeks, or so. What led to the transition out of that, and your trip back home?
Matt: We have two dogs, so we had friends that were watching them but we knew we had to get back to somewhat of a normal life. At that point, our girls were getting a little bit stronger. We probably could have stayed there longer but we needed to get back to reality. I also started back at work after two weeks. Being home and being in my own bed, being able to shower, helped me.
Joe: When you went back to work, what was your schedule as far as visiting the girls?
Matt: I get off work at five o’clock, straight down to the hospital. Get there about five thirty. Was there until nine thirty, ten o’clock at night and then back home. That was it. Weekends I was there eight, nine o’clock in the morning, until ten o’clock at night.
Joe: Did your wife has … Was she on maternity leave? Had she left her job, at that time?
Matt: Our bosses and our employers were phenomenal through the whole thing. She got time off, basically as much as she wanted, for the girls. She took her full six weeks off until, and maybe a little more. Then she went back part-time, for a couple hours a week just to again, get some sort of normalcy outside the NICU. Your mind is weighing heavy with all the other stuff going on, so it’s hard to focus. That’s why our bosses were so lenient. So, if we needed to go and go to the hospital, we could pretty much anytime.
Joe: How long were your girls in the NICU before they were able to come home?
Matt: Brynn was in there for 101 days. Harper was in there for 106 days.
Joe: Tell us about when you were able to bring your first daughter home. What was that experience like?
Matt: Scary as all get out. They’ve just been off oxygen really five days before, six days before, without any assistance. It’s overwhelming. You’re able to … and a lot of mixed emotions. When you’re leaving the hospital that night, you’re able to take one baby home, so you’re so excited but at the same time, you feel awful because you’ve got another daughter that’s still there. When you finally get over that kind of emotion, that night you get home and you realize that you’ve got this little child that was so fragile, and is still, in your mind, so fragile. What are you going to do? There wasn’t a lot of sleep that night. Especially for the first couple of nights. We kind of tag teamed it. Both get up as needed, so one or the other person could sleep.
At that point, we knew that Brynn had come home, we also knew Harper was coming home soon. I then took off from work, so at least we were both home. We’d do all of our normal stuff. We were on such a routine and regimented schedule. Every three hours you were doing something. We did as much as possible while Brynn was home with us, but we would just take her right back to the hospital the next morning, or every morning to stay in the NICU with her sister. We just kind of did everything like we always did. They kept a bed in the room for Brynn as well still, since she had just left. It was kind of surreal, and it was hard, but because we were able to take Brynn back to the hospital, the only difference was she came home with us at the end of the night.
Joe: All right. Were there any lingering complications once you brought your girls home?
Matt: Thankfully, no. Both girls came home without the need for any oxygen, which we didn’t think was going to be the case. We were just worried about having a spell. Those spells are a couple of things. You could forget how to breathe, so your oxygen level dips, or you could have a cardiac episode, where your heart rate dips. When you’re in the hospital, you get used to looking at a monitor and seeing what their heart rate and oxygen levels are. You get to know what’s good and what’s bad. When you come home you don’t have that safety net, so to speak.
We had gone out and purchased a couple of outlet monitors to help us monitor on our phones, when they slept at night. But, during the day we didn’t have that. You’re constantly checking on them. Worried that something could go wrong. But yeah, we didn’t have any … anything thankfully to this date, any known or lingering issues.
Joe: Tell us a little bit about those monitors that you got.
Matt: They’re Owlet Monitors. They’re pulse socks, is really what they are. They have a little sock that fits on their foot that reads their pulse and oxygen rate levels, and will alarm if they get too low. We kept them on them when they slept at night, and the monitor would feed a little base station. Either the base station would go off, or you could have an app on your phone that would alert your phone. If you weren’t in the room, or didn’t hear it, it would alert your phone. We only had a couple of instances where they’re pulse would dip during deep REM sleep. Thankfully nothing that was too bad. It would alarm briefly, and you’d kind of jostle them. They’d come right back up.
Joe: How are your girls doing with feeding?
Matt: It was rough. They didn’t really learn that sucks, swallowing and breathing until 34, 35 week mark. You start off with small doses, as any parent does with a newborn. We had to feed with a bottle. My wife wasn’t able to produce enough milk to breastfeed or to pump, mostly because of the shear, how early they were born. The stress didn’t help that, as well. We were on formula, and more expensive formulas as well, because they needed extra calories.
Feedings for us were every two and a half, three hours, on the clock, as regimented as possible, just to keep them on schedule. Sometimes they would take an ounce. Sometimes they would take three ounces, every feeding. They also … One of our girls had really bad reflux, which doesn’t help. They’re spitting it up a lot, and they’re very uncomfortable during and after the feeding, so that was unfortunate, as well. We had to put her on some medication for a while. As infants, you get used to wiping up a lot of spit-up, that’s for sure.
Joe: How did you and your wife rotate responsibilities overnight, with the twins?
Matt: Early on we thought it’d be a good idea that you get up for the full hour. At nine o’clock we had a feeding and then at nine thirty. At nine o’clock it was Brynn, nine thirty was Harper. We thought it was a good idea at that feeding, whoever takes that one, then at the midnight feeding, the next person gets up, and does the full hour, which turns into an hour and a half, two hours. So on and so forth, through the evening. We found out when we did that, we got a lot less sleep. After a couple of weeks of that we actually switched to, we’d just both get up and fed them, in the middle of the night. Going to two and a half, three hours of sleep for each of us, we were starting to get five to six hours of sleep, which was a huge bonus.
Joe: Yes. Sleep is always … You never know how much you miss sleep until it’s not there. Your babies to that to you. They press your limits on what’s physically possible to endure. As you’ve gone over the last 19 months with your girls, what have been some of the milestones that they’ve hit, or things that got a little bit easier, in parenting?
Matt: Feeding themselves has been awesome. Once they started to take on solids and we’d be able to put them in their highchairs and they kind of feed themselves, where I don’t have to sit and bottle feed them. That’s just great. Seeing one of my girls take off and start to walk recently was amazing. We’re still working on the other one. She’s getting there. She had an injury recently where she dropped a can of beans on her foot, so she’s just a little bit more hesitant in the last couple of days to try and walk. She’ll get there.
I’m not going to lie. It’s kind of nice when they’re not mobile. So now that they are mobile, and crawling and climbing and stuff, you gotta watch them a lot more. It’s fun, because they start playing with things. The sheer enjoyment they have when they accomplish something. As far as putting something together with blocks, or climbing over the chair, or rolling around on the floor, it’s all fun stuff. The easiest part now is definitely not having to bottle feed them. Also, not having to change so many diapers. That’s also nice to see as they got a little bit older.
Joe: Have you seen any kind of mimicking or behaviors between your girls where one will do something and the other will then follow suit?
Matt: They’ll make the noise and they’ll pat their hand over their mouth. Harper will start and then Brynn will follow sometimes. They copy after Mila. I will do it to them, but now they do it to each other. Otherwise, they’re really independent from each other. They know that each other is there but they kind of do their own thing. I have one adventurer who loves to climb and play around. Like I said, I have one that likes to sit and focus on things. To some degree, they’re just very separate individual children, which is awesome. I’d like to see them play a little bit more together, I guess. There’s not a ton of mimicking, back and forth other than once in a while when they get going on their talking.
Joe: How is their speech developing, right now?
Matt: Slowly. I guess one thing we did see coming from the NICU, I’d say there weren’t any outstanding issues. Brynn actually has a really raspy voice. She has an issue with her vocal cords, from where she was intubated for so long. The vocal cords should go together. When they go together they vibrate and that’s how they produce sound, and then your voice. Because the intubation tube was in there, it was actually resting against her vocal cords as it was developing, and actually created a small gap. So, it doesn’t close all the way, so she doesn’t talk a lot. She does make some noises, but she’s not quite there yet. She’s also not walking. That’s one of the big milestones that happens after you start taking off and walking, you start to find your voice and start talking a little bit more. We’re hoping that happens soon.
Harper on the other hand, is walking, running around. She is babbling up a storm. She’s not saying a lot of major words yet. She does say, what. She says, woof, woof, for dog, which is pretty funny. They’re speech isn’t there yet. For being micro preemies, one thing that any parent of a premature child should know is that for the first couple years of life you don’t go based off of the actual age for a lot of milestone developments. You go off what their adjusted age. In this case, they were born four months early, so they’re 19 months, actual. Their adjusted age would be 15 months. We look at goals and things that they should be doing that a 15 month old child would be doing. Based off that, they’re not really too far behind. They’re doing a lot of stuff on both ends of the spectrum, that a 19 month old child would do, but still a lot of stuff that a 15 month or a one-year-old child would.
Joe: That’s a great point for other to remember is, careful when doing comparisons between where your child is, and other children of that same age, or even between the twins because they will develop at different rates. You mentioned the dogs. How did you get them ready for babies?
Matt: We heard, and I don’t know if it’s true or not, but we had heard, while they were in the hospital, give them blankets. Give them hats, whatever. Make sure it’s in the isolette with them. Instead of coming home and washing it, come home and give it to the dogs. Let the dogs sniff it. Our dogs are small. One of them is about eight years old. He’s kind of the most relaxed, laid back dog in the world. We weren’t too worried about him, but we did have essentially a puppy, as well. He was about a year old at the time. I think because he was still so young and when the girl’s came home he kind of started to grow up with the girls. Once we brought them home, he’d sniff them, look around them, but he was very careful around them, which was great. I don’t know if that had to do with bringing stuff home and him knowing what the smell was, or just having an innate sense that these are babies. Be careful. He’s been phenomenal with them, too.
Joe: What’s a typical day in the life of your twins right now, as far as schedule goes with eating, nap time, sleeping?
Matt: We still try and stay on a pretty good schedule. The last couple of weeks they’ve been sleeping in until about seven thirty in the morning. We get up. Come downstairs, diaper changes. They sometimes will play a little bit. Then we get them in for breakfast by about eight, eight thirty, where they’ll have some eggs, an Eggo, some fruit, some milk. Eight thirty, nine o’clock then they play for about an hour, or so. Around nine thirty, ten o’clock they go down for about an hour long nap, sometimes longer. They wake up. They’ll have a snack. They’ll play for a little while longer before lunch at around noon, twelve thirty. Eat. Depending on who’s with them, if I’m with them, or mom’s home with them too, we might go out and do something in between those times.
If the nanny’s with them, same thing. Then they’ll go to sleep, take a nap around two. Sometimes, again for an hour, to two hours. Wake up and usually it’s either a small snack. Play some more, then dinner around five thirty. Lately I’ve gotten in a really good routine. We go for a nice long walk. Come home between seven and seven thirty, we get their bottle ready for bed. Feed them, and hopefully they’re asleep by seven thirty, eight o’clock.
We stay on a pretty tight schedule still, and kind of work our lives around the schedule for now. If we’re out and about, change things up a bit. One thing we didn’t do early on because obviously because we didn’t want to take them places, we didn’t go to a lot of restaurants. We’ve sort of introduced restaurants right now, where we take them. We still go out to eat for lunch or dinner. We fit that around their lunches or dinners, as well so we’re still on the same schedule or as close to it as possible.
Joe: That’s very similar to what we had to do, adjusting to their schedule, their nap schedule, their feeding schedule. We found when we would break that, they’d be cranky, things wouldn’t go as well as we wanted, so it was worth adjusting our schedule to accommodate them. Tell us a little bit about the work situation and daycare situation, childcare. How did you make some of those decisions?
Matt: We were very fortunate and very lucky. Work situation, I work eight to five, Monday through Friday. My wife works Tuesday through Friday. Her schedule is a little different, where she works early on Wednesdays from eight until three thirty. On Fridays from nine to five. Tuesdays and Thursdays she works twelve to nine. We didn’t need daycare on Monday, but we also didn’t need somebody nine to five through the rest of the week, except Friday. Daycare was a big challenge because we have twins. For anybody who’s listening, daycare is expensive, but we have a neighborhood website that I went out on. I just said, “Hey, we’re looking for childcare. Are there any nannies available?” One hit, but she was looking for something a little different time. I kind of brushed it off, and I’ll think about it as it gets closer to actually needing one.
The girls came home in May. My wife took off for six weeks. Then I took off for another eight weeks. I think that’s the timeframe, roughly that we took off. When I was looking for the nanny initially, while they were still in the NICU, trying to get a jumpstart on it. When I started pricing out daycare’s because they were astronomical for combined between $400 and $700 a week, combined. I was like, I don’t know how we’re going to swing that. Like I said, I put that thing out on the website, and the dates she wanted didn’t line up. About a week into my maternity, or paternity leave she messaged us again and said, “Hey, my nanny gig fell through. If you’re still looking for somebody at the end of September, I’m still available.” We met with her. We loved her. She’s phenomenal. We ended up going the nanny route. It was for us cheaper. When you’re talking two kids, and most daycare’s require a static Monday through Friday. You pay us if you’re there or not. The nanny was just a better alternative, more flexible for our schedules.
Joe: Is your arrangement where you pay her per hour, or flat fee per month?
Matt: Per hour. If she works, she gets paid. The only caveat to that is, if we cancel on her less than 24 hours, for whatever reason, we would have to pay her for that day. But otherwise, if we give her a heads up and she knows our schedule, or we know her schedule, it works out well.
Joe: Matt, as we wrap up today, if listeners would like to get a hold of you, what’s the best way to get in touch?
Matt: You can hit me up on Facebook, if you can find me. Otherwise, email me. I’m happy to talk to anybody that has any concerns or going down the same path as I went down. Our family went down with having a premature birth for our girls. It’s [email protected]
Joe: Excellent. We’ll link up to that in the show notes for this episode. Matt, thank you so much for spending time with us on the show today. We really appreciate it.
Matt: No problem. Thanks for having me, Joe.
Joe: I hope you enjoyed the show today with Matt, about his amazing journey with his twins from such an early arrival though the challenges of those preemie babies, to bringing them home and the progress they’ve made since then. If you want to go back and listen to this Podcast or any previous Podcast episode, or check out the transcript head on over to Twindadpodcast.com.
As I mentioned at the top of the show, today’s episode was brought to you by my first book, Dad’s Guide to Twins: How to Survive the Twin Pregnancy and Prepare for Your Twins. You can get a free audiobook version of that book at freetwinbook.com.
If you enjoyed our conversation today with your fellow father of twins, and would like to be on the show yourself and share your story, I’d love to host you. Drop me an email at [email protected] Thank you so much for listening and I’ll see you next time.
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