From Premature Twin Delivery to Having a Third Child after Twins with Zach Starr – Podcast 289

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Episode 289 of the Dad’s Guide to Twins Podcast Show Notes

Today we continue our father of twins interview series with Zach Starr, father of identical twin girls. Listen as we explore his twin parenting journey, including:

• Mom developing liver cholestasis during pregnancy
• Water broke at 33 weeks in the middle of the night
• Natural delivery of twins when they thought it would be a c-section
• Staying positive with each milestone girls reached in the NICU
• Getting twins on the same schedule
• Dealing with the witching hour in the evenings
• Challenges of breast feeding the twins
• Successfully sleep training the twins
• Finding a babysitter to help with kids during the day
• Having a third child when twins were still under age 2
• Road tripping with lots of little ones
• Dental tips for young children
• Developing a strong bond with your twins
• and more…

Connect with Zach via email [email protected]

Podcast Transcript

This is transcript auto-generated so please forgive any mistakes.

Joe:

Today we’d like to welcome to the show, father of twins. Zach Starr, welcome to the show. Zach. Zach, how old are your twins right now and what is something really exciting about this age?

Zach:

My twin girls will turn four in about two weeks and something that’s really exciting about this age is they’re constantly learning new phrases, and they’ll say things to you that you would have no idea how they would know about how to say that or what it even means. But they’re always coming up with something new.

Joe:

Is one of your girls, usually the first to come up with a phrase or they just kind of take turns?

Zach:

They take turns on they are identical but they have extremely different personalities. And that can change. It’s not like one always does one thing or one does the other. But in terms of milestones, there was definitely one who seemed to achieve those maybe a week or two before her sister, technically the younger of the twins. But they have different interests and different styles. Big thing for them right now is clothing and accessories and shoes and hair bands all of that.

Joe:

It’s so fun when they start to have an opinion about what they wear, what their what their sister’s wearing, and we’ve gone through all that as well. Let’s rewind back to when you found out that you would be having twins. What was your family situation like and how was your reaction to that news?

Zach:

Sure. My wife and I had been married for about three years. I wouldn’t say that we were trying to have kids but we also weren’t trying or weren’t not trying to have kids. So we found out my wife was pregnant. This was in 2018, late 2018 And we went to the first ultrasound appointment at a regular OB and I remember just being a little nervous because I hadn’t ever done something like this before. And I remember the tech left the room and then came back in. And when she came back in she had brought the doctor and that’s when they told us that there were twins and they showed us on the screen. And I remember they brought out a textbook because they couldn’t figure out what the how many eggs there were and how many sacks there were based on the way the ultrasound looked. But they ended up being monozygotic dye amniotic twins. And the OB told us also that the hospital that he had privileges that didn’t have a NICU that was sufficient enough for possible complications. So they offered to still kind of see us but they weren’t going to be able to deliver the babies. So they referred us to an MFM a maternal fetal medicine doctor that was located more downtown in our metro area. And we ended up going there and they connected us with their own OB who would deliver the twins.

Joe:

Okay, so you do switcheroo there in the beginning. How was the pregnancy for mom and for babies?

Zach:

Everything went pretty smooth. You know for the most part, I would say probably in between the second and third trimester. My wife developed liver colon stasis. So she was retaining some of these liberal bribe byproducts that she shouldn’t be in it caused her to become very very itchy. And you know, I’ve never experienced anything like that but she was pretty miserable until this liberal stasis was diagnosed and they ended up putting her on a medication called her sidai All which basically took all those symptoms away. And the pregnancy was going really well. The the obese had strongly encouraged a scheduled C section at 36 weeks. That’s what they were wanting to do for identical twins. But my wife’s water ended up breaking at just about 33 weeks.

Joe:

So where were you and where was she when that happened – when her water broke?

Zach:

Yeah, I mean, it was pretty classic. Like out of the movies. It was the middle of the night. She woke me up and she said Hey, I think my water broke. It was technically a Monday morning. She was supposed to work that day. We’re both dentists. So you know, when we call out of work, you know, we have to cancel all our patients too. So I remember just running around the house with her there was a huge puddle like in the bed. And she wanted me to get the car seats and all this stuff and we didn’t really have any sort of go bags prepared. So we just got whatever we could into the car. And we were so concerned about you know, bringing baby clothes and all this stuff and we had no idea that the kids are going to be in the NICU and that the babies weren’t going to come right away. So I remember, you know, dropping her off essentially at the end and going to find parking. And eventually I got to see her in the they moved her up to the labor and delivery ward.

Joe:

So where are your girls born? That same? That same night or same morning?

Zach:

So they wanted to hold them off for an additional week. But all they were able to get was like another three days they gave my wife two rounds of steroid injections, which are supposed to promote lung development because I think in between the 33rd and 34th week is when that final lung development happens. And the kids were you know, they were measuring a little bit small in the lead up but everything else will otherwise normal thank God. So there was no you know, concern to take them earlier than that. But she started having contractions, and about 33 and a half weeks, very painful ones. And so what was a planned scheduled C section luckily turned into a natural delivery.

Joe:

Oh it did. So the girls were in the right positions to come out naturally?

Zach:

Yeah, yeah. We lucked out the OB that happened to be on call. When my wife’s contractions started was like yeah, like, you know, we’ll take you to the VOR we’ll prepare for a C section but we’ll try to go we’ll try to go bad, you know, natural, and she’s like, I am comfortable. You know, delivering breech if if need be. So, we’d lucked out in terms of that. And, you know, my wife, they were small they came out you know, about three and a half pounds so my wife was able to get them out pretty quickly. So, the, my first girl, she was fine. She was taken directly to the NICU. And my second girl was put on some supplemental oxygen for about 24 hours and then taken to the NICU as well.

Joe:

And how did your girls fare in the NICU? Did they just need to some more time to grow? Or were there some other complications?

Zach:

Yeah, basically, they just needed some more time to grow, learn how to you know, take a bottle, things like that. So they were in there for about three and a half weeks. They have various levels of observation. They started off in like, you know, the, the highest observation and then they stepped down all the way to more of like a nursery setting. This was pre COVID. So we were able to visit although there were still a lot of restrictions on that about how many people could be in there at once. They did really good. In the NICU. It was really nice for us, because we got to see the nurses take care of the babies and essentially they trained us. So I think it ended up being a beneficial experience for us instead of having to take home both babies at once with no idea what’s going on. We got to watch the nurses, feed them and carry them and change them. And then we got to participate as well. We were going every day for several hours to do skin to skin and then and to participate in the feedings because my wife was convinced you know if she was there, she would be able to get them to take more in terms of milk and the more they were eating the quicker we would get to take them home. But everyone was super, super helpful and supportive. And you know, it was nice, getting that time together with the four of us. But it’s not a super, you know, positive place to be there are some babies there that are very sick. And so we just really felt lucky. While we were there that, you know, everything for the most part was going okay.

Joe:

So how do you keep I mean, you’re looking at these other babies that are in probably worse condition than your girls were. So how do you keep getting a positive outlook on the progress your girls were making?

Zach:

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think that was kind of up to me, you know? To try to stay positive. My wife was definitely a little bit depressed. I think she felt, you know, somewhat inadequate that her water broke and she delivered early and she wasn’t able to keep them any longer. But, you know, we tried to reassure her that this was nature you know, they came out for a reason. And, you know, I think as we started to see them, make their, you know, tiny little milestones like when they came out of the incubator or when they were taking a bottle for the first time or when they took the feeding tubes out, or when they took, you know, some other barriers away essentially, when they went to the different units. Those were all like little checkpoints that made us feel like we were progressing towards the goal. And the nurse that was in charge of discharge planning was super organized. She had her own little checklist that she would keep by each of the baby’s cribs so that we knew, Okay, you know, what do we have to do to take them home? And then the other thing was, you know, because the babies came so early my wife didn’t have breast milk yet. And I remember those first few days that she was trying to pump literally nothing was coming out. And I think a lot of moms would give up at that point. But my wife stuck with it. And after about a week of you know, just listening to the lactation consultants and everything, you know, she was able to produce more than enough breast milk for them. So I think for her it was important to be there because when she would hear them cry or smell them, you know, the biology would take over and make it easier for her to express milk.

Joe:

So it was she there most of the day.

Zach:

Yeah. You know, we don’t really have paternity leave in our line paternity or maternity leave in our line of work, but I had blocked off X significant a significant amount of time based on when I anticipated her delivery to be and ended up just shuffling things around. So I had a few weeks with her there. And then I wouldn’t meet her there after work. Now we weren’t allowed to sleep there but we were spending probably about eight to 12 hours there a day.

Joe:

So when the time came for you to bring your girls home, do they are they both released? At the same time? I did. Were they staggered.

Zach:

No like other people on your podcast. They were staggered about one day which again was nice, you know, we got to do the one night with one of them by ourselves and then we had both of them. So it was a little difficult in terms of like logistics, you know, because someone needs to be at home with one baby and then we had to, you know, drive to go pick up the other baby and so that was our little intro and you know how challenging childcare can be at times. But yeah, once we got them home, you know, we had been trained, like I said pretty well in the NICU and we were recording everything in notebooks in terms of when they would feed how much they would take like to the rounds when they would you know wet diapers and poopy diapers and things like that.

Joe:

So what were some of the things that surprised you when you brought the girls home or maybe they you struggled with?

Zach:

Probably they were fussy and I don’t know if that was just us not really knowing what we were doing. Or if they a gasp but, you know eventually, a pediatrician gave us a prescription for Zantac, which is like an antacid and I don’t think that did much honestly. But I think the hardest thing at first was just the the lack of sleep and the girls being even though you know, we kept them together. They were in the same crib in our room at first. They were not on the same schedule. And it wasn’t like they were waking each other up. It’s just they had different needs at different times. And so, you know, figuring out when to do what or what certain you know why they weren’t sleeping or why they weren’t eating or why they were crying. You know, when we were new parents was challenging at times. But that’s why it was helpful for us to record everything in our our notebooks. And we we continue doing that until they were almost one year old, I think. So we kept up with that for a while.

Joe:

It’s great. It’s very analytical approach the way you can Yeah, because in the first year you get your sleep deprived and you just can’t remember stuff very well. So to write it down is so important because he could just look back and say, Oh, this is what they did yesterday or that last week. How are we able to start to get them on the same schedule.

Zach:

So you know, we had a lot of help. My mother in law basically lived with us for nine out of the first 12 months and there would be times that she would take one of the babies essentially and do the night shift by herself where me and my wife would do the night shift for one. So she really, really helped us but what we just started doing was trying to at least feed them at the same time and try to put them down for naps at the same time. Now, whether or not we usually had two people almost always with them, at least for the first three to four months. So one you know one was able to one adult was able to focus on on one child you know in some were one baby was typically better at napping than the other one was better at eating than the other woman sleep more at night than the other. So their wake ups weren’t always consistent but we tried to slowly you know, hold them off essentially if they would wake up instead of feeding right away try to wait till their sister woke up. But once they sort of hit that four month, maybe five month mark that’s when sort of all of that newborn sleep that was easier to achieve started to go away and the night wakings became more frequent. The napping in the day was pretty bad. And they started what we called the witching hour are these colic attacks that would occur maybe around five or 6pm. And you know, put a matter if we fed them or if we didn’t feed them it was just brutal for basically like two hours. Each of them would do it and and then they would sleep. And so I started doing a lot more research into sleep training. And I came across two really good book. One. The first one I read was called 12 hours of sleep by 12 weeks old. And that’s a book by Susie G or Dano. And then the other one I read was called sleep easy solution. And that’s by Jill speedback. And so I basically use a combined approach from both of those books. But the important thing was making sure that they were drinking enough milk during the day. And so I think what these books talk about is about 24 ounces and a 24 hour period is what you know a baby of that age needs now, some will drink more, some will drink less, but we really focused on trying to give them more opportunities to feed during the day. And at night we started we would still feed on demand but we would offer less now what was helpful, I think for my wife and for me was that she she didn’t breastfeed at all she pumped and we would either fortify that with formula or we would just alternate with formula. So we were able to keep track of exactly how many ounces they were drinking and and things like that. And as we hit that four and a half month, five month stretch, that’s when I started talking to my wife about possibly sleep training them and she was definitely up for it. I think we had had some family stay with us, you know, right around their five month birthday and then they left and once all the grandmas were gone. We we were ready. And what we did was basically a version of what is popular, popularly called cry it out. And so there was one Rough night definitely with them getting used to it or I shouldn’t even say one Rough night, one rough hour if that. But again, they were already drinking enough during the day that they didn’t necessarily need any feedings at night. So we allowed them to cry. I think they did cry for close to 30 minutes that first night. And then they went to sleep. And I’ll always remember what what that was like, I couldn’t believe that it actually worked like that. And, you know, of course the next day we would we reinforced it with naptime and there was a little bit more protests with naptime, but eventually they got that too. And so you know, ever since then we’ve been pretty strict with bedtime and nap time. You know, we have fun here or there and we’ll let them sleep a little later. Go to sleep a little later or skip a nap here or there but the structure is remained the same and I think I think that’s really important. And once I got that sort of ability to you know, have some predictability in my life knowing that okay, if we put them down at seven, they’re probably going to sleep until they were sleeping until about maybe 6am at that point. So you get that 11 hours that were yours. Basically you can catch up on the housework you can catch up with your wife. I remember that’s when we me and my wife first started watching Netflix again together. Because we just didn’t have the time where the two of us were not doing something those first few months

Joe:

is the training is so powerful. Method. We did something very similar. And it just takes persistence as a parent, but ultimately your children learn the new routine and they fall into it and when did you and your wife go back to work during that for that time?

Zach:

I pretty much went right back to work. You know round when we actually took the girls home and like I said I had my mother in law with us. We also hired the first of the babysitters that we’ve used and she would come during the day. And my mother in law was you know, again really, really helpful and my wife was really good at it, too. She was just a natural. And then I think my wife slowly started working maybe one Saturday, a month and then a couple Saturdays a month and then one day a week and then a couple days a week so she sort of eased back in she’s in private practice I work for the government so it was a little bit easier for me to to use vacation because I I earned vacation whereas she doesn’t. So what I would do is maybe take off like one day a week to be at home so that she could work. But now she you know now, four years later she’s full time I’m full time so you know those first couple of years she definitely was more like part time capacity. And right around when the girls were about eight or 10 months, we found a babysitter that could handle both of them at the same time. And we’ve had her ever since she’s been a huge blessing for us.

Joe:

Okay, so this babysitter is with your girls like during the day when you’re working?

Zach:

Basically like about 10 hours a day. So I usually leave for work earlier than my wife, my wife will do sort of the morning routine with the kids and then the babysitter will come and my wife will go to work and my girls are in preschool. So the babysitter drives them to and from preschool and we’ll take my son along for the ride. But now she handles all three by herself. So again, you know, not not every caregiver can handle that. But this was such a such a blessing for us and my my one bit of advice if you’re looking for a babysitter or considering hiring a babysitter, I would really tell you to try to find someone that’s that’s already Amman that already has children of their own. We went through a few before we found the one that we currently use, and they just don’t think the same way. I don’t think if they haven’t had their own children yet. There is a change I think that happens when you become a parent in terms of how you look at things and the way you analyze whether or not something is safe and things like that and sort of our greatest success in in finding people to take care of our kids is people who have their own kids,

Joe:

because there’s there’s nothing like experience to teach you how to deal with with young children for sure. So you mentioned your son who’s now two So somewhere between twins and now you had a third child. Tell us about that. Tell us about that transition from just the two to three.

Zach:

Well, it must have been about a month or two after the twins turned one. We found out we were pregnant with my son. And we were we were pretty nervous about it. Because if he were to be delivered on time, then their twins were only going to be about 20 months older than my son and we didn’t know how would you be able to handle it and so there was definitely some nervousness. But as the pregnancy progressed and everything was going fine again, thank God and my twins got a little bit older, they actually became I want to I don’t want to say easier to manage, but again, more predictable and I think we just became more comfortable as parents and so that sort of trepidation slowly decreased over time. But yeah, he when he was born, he was full term. Very different. Than my girls. He didn’t require any sort of NICU stay. He came out you know, drinking a ton of milk. It was really chill, no colic attacks. You know, he ate and drank really well. You know, the sleeping was about the same as the girls and we eventually trained him as well he took to it. So you know, it was definitely tough. But again, we had we had help. We had my mother in law, we had our babysitter, and we even hired like a second babysitter to kind of take take over from the first babysitter towards the end of the day. My wife was at home for about two to three months with all three of them and various help. And in between when I have my girls I’m gonna have my son. The government passed a law that allows for paternity leave for federal employees. So I was granted three months of paid paternity leave. Which I ended up spreading out over the course of a year to take one to two days off per week to you know, be at home with everyone and allow my wife to continue working. It was just to spend more time with the kids.

Joe:

I’m glad you mentioned how you kind of stretched your time off out and that’s a good one for our listeners to know is like, say you have a set amount of time you can take off from work. It can often be used creatively like just like you did where you stretch it out over time doesn’t have to be used all at once. So you can kind of mesh that with the needs of your family. So yeah, I

Zach:

think it’s like a misconception that you need the most help like right when the baby comes out. And that’s when everyone wants to help in terms of family and friends and they want to come over and see the baby but you really need a lot more help. I think once the kids are crawling and walking and more mobile and there’s more meal prepping and laundry and things like that. So I think it’s it’s nice to have that time at the beginning, but I think it’s a lot more valuable later on in their development. And it’s probably more valuable. You know, for me as a dad I’m able to connect with them more, I think when they’re older than you know, perhaps when they were, you know, one month old in terms of you know, the feedback I get from them.

Joe:

That’s true. I mean, you can spend time with them when they’re very little but they are as interactive as they are when they get a little bit older. That’s for sure. So your twins are still very young when your son was born. So do they even know what was going on? And how what was their reaction to a new baby in the house?

Zach:

We had told them I don’t know whether or not they understood that the two of the two twins had very different reactions. One was pretty friendly. The other one was not mean or you know didn’t do anything to harm him but she was definitely upset. And I think it took I think we’re still dealing with it to be honest with you. They both have had phases really fighting for mom’s attention. And because they were so young when my son came out, you know, a lot of the duties in terms of taking care of my son were relegated to me because the girls wouldn’t let my wife do anything. So I think my wife was a little disappointed because she got less bonding time with my son, but I loved it because I got a ton of bonding time with him. You know, during those early stages, again, she was pumping so I could bottle feed and I could do everything as long as you know she was able to pump and so it was tough, definitely. But soon, each day it got a little better in terms of them recognizing that he was there and part of the family and I think he gets the most out of it. You know, his development has been so much quicker I think being able to look up to his sisters and copy off them. It seems like he he’s been doing everything a lot quicker than than they were. And now finally, I think they’re all three of them. He just turned two they’re about to turn four. They’ll play together a little bit. And that usually turns into something physical, but there are little brief moments where they’re having a good time with each other.

Joe:

Did you have to change? Usually when you add additional child and maybe changes in your house layout or vehicles or gear? Was there any big changes you had to make there? No. Luckily

Zach:

when we bought our house it was it was a four bedroom and we were like oh wow. We will never fill this you know and then three kids later we suddenly had you know we’re starting to outgrow the house. We did move from that house about six months ago but we could have stayed there for a while we just wanted a little bit more space. We did purchase a third vehicle with three rows kind of a high mileage Toyota that my babysitter will use to take the kids to and from school and we use when we’re doing road trips. And we could have made it work with the vehicles we had but we again because my wife and I work full time. We wanted the the babysitter to have a car in case she needed to take the kids anywhere and I mean obviously she has a car but we already have the car seats installed it’s ready to go rather than making her have to deal with that. We didn’t go for the triple stroller we stuck to a double and a single and we do still have three high chairs we’re able to still feed our four year old girls in the high chairs they don’t like it but it makes it easier for us. We have to buy a third crib because my two girls who are still in each have their own cribs. But other than that, you know we were able to use some hand me downs in terms of the baby gear.

Joe:   

our situation is kind of similar but reversed or we had two very young children, two young boys when our twins were born so they’re all three years younger and the dynamics you mentioned about how once one twin reacted differently to the baby that was the same thing with our Singleton’s like one of our boys was all about the twins and one of them was like whatever, I don’t care, some stuff was able to be reused. We had to transition one of our boys to bed so they could free up a crib you know, so it’s got to be a little bit creative errands for sure. You mentioned road tripping and travel. What success have you found when traveling with a bunch of little ones?

Zach:

We only have tried flying once. The girls were about six months old. It did not go well. We flew. It was about a four hour flight and they basically cried the whole time. And we were pretty scarred from that. So we haven’t done that since. So we do do a lot of road trips. We live in North Carolina and my wife’s family lives in Baltimore. So it’s about a six and a half hour drive. And we’ve done that. We’ve done that several times and what used to work for us as we would leave sort of in the evening kind of around their dinner and bedtime and eventually they would fall asleep in the car seats. But that got pretty hard to do. You know because that leaves the parents driving really late at night. So now we kind of just muscle through it. We are aware that they may or may not sleep in the car. They’re a little older now so they can you know, watch things on on a tablet or a screen and they can eat snacks and things like that when they were much younger. It was harder but now it’s definitely a little bit easier and we tried to you know, make some stops to get out and and do something rather than just trying to drive in the middle of the night and hope that they stay asleep the whole time. We make the trips. The road trip more of an event we’ll stop and see friends along the way or we’ll stop for food we’ll find a park we’ll find something to sort of break up that the monotony of the driving.

Joe:   

We’ve we’ve done long road trips to with little ones. The worst time was when they were potty training and we tried a long road trip I would not recommend that. To anybody. If they’re still in diapers or they’ve mastered the potty then that’s great. Hit the road for sure. So Zach, you mentioned you’re a dentist so I can’t let you go without getting some some tips about establishing some good dental hygiene, good practices, good habits with little kids. What would you recommend on that front?

Zach:

You really I think the big thing with parents is juice and Well it starts with milk you know you don’t want to put a milk bottle in the in the crib and allow the baby to sort of sit on that all night because then you know all that milk is sitting on the teeth and that’s a pretty quick way for them to develop decay there. The other thing is sort of limiting the juice intake. If you are going to give your kids juice go for it but try to limit it to during meals again, so they’re not sipping on it all day. And then, in terms of brushing their teeth you know we we still brush their teeth. A pediatric dentist told me once that you should not allow your kids to brush their teeth unsupervised until they know how to tie their shoes. So I don’t know what age kids usually learn to do that my girls are definitely not doing that. yet. So we still help them with brushing their teeth and we tried to do it morning and night and um it’s definitely challenging for I think in the beginning they don’t want you to do it but now they’re pretty into it and they want to participate and they want to squeeze the toothpaste out onto the brush and you know do all this ritual that they have associated with it. But sort of the other big tip is that you really don’t need much toothpaste. For little kids. We’re talking like a grain of rice. So minimal minimal toothpaste. It’s more important just to use the brush.

Joe:   

Yeah the amount of toothpaste is interesting because once they get their hands on that tube, it’s not there’s always more coming out than you want. Because that because you look back at your experience so far as a father of twins, were there any other surprises or lessons learned that you feel would be of value to other dads that are listening today?

Zach:

Transitioning into caring about people other than just myself? You know, I got married and that was a transition, you know having someone else in your life. But then all of a sudden we have you know two children and you know I went from being able to essentially do whatever I wanted to having to you know, see how that factored into everything else we were doing. So that definitely took me a little bit of time to develop I think for moms, you know they make that switch or that transition during pregnancy. You know, they’re carrying the babies, they they have a head start on on bonding. So I think it’s important that you try to be involved as much as you can and support in whatever way you can. Once the babies come out. I think once you develop a stronger relationship with them, that’s when some of those sacrifices we make his parents seem less like sacrifices. And, you know, I try to when I get really frustrated or angry at them I try to remember and my wife usually does have to remind me that they’re, you know, they’re just kids they’re learning. It’s not It’s nothing personal, you know? And, you know, I try to think about how, how quickly they they are growing up and you know, to try to take advantage of each moment I have with them.

Joe:   

It’s great perspective to have more time here to spend with them the quicker able to build that bond. I agree with you like during the pregnancy as a father, it’s kind of surreal. I mean, you see the changes in your partner. You see the sonograms ultrasounds, but it’s still kind of not real until they show up. And then the process starts. And the point you mentioned about the things that your kids do are not they’re not malicious, unintentionally. They’re not doing stuff to get you first bite. It’s certainly if you don’t take it personal, they’re gonna do things that drive you crazy and that’s just that’s just the way it is and you roll with it. But those are some great tips that you shared there, Zack, so as we wrap up today, if if other parents would like to connect with you, what’s the best way to reach out

Zach:

email is easiest. It’s [email protected]

Joe:   

Right. So thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. We really appreciate it.

I hope you enjoyed that chat with Zach about his adventures as a father of twins. If you’d like to see the show notes for this episode, or listen to any previous podcast episodes, just head on over to twindadpodcast.com. Again, today’s show is brought to you by my store called twintshirtcompany.com. Where you’ll find lots of T shirts designed specifically for us parents of twins and for families of twins. They make perfect gifts for your favorite twin family members. As well as for yourself. Head on over to twintshirtcompany.com

If you’d like to share your story like Zach did today on the podcast, I would love to hear from you. You can reach out to me via email [email protected] or on Instagram or Twitter @twindadjoe and I would love to connect. Thank you so much for listening and I’ll see you next time.

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