Kevin Zelenka talks IVF, NICU, and being a SAHD of twins – Podcast 89

Episode 89 of the Dad’s Guide to Twins Podcast Show Notes

Listen to Kevin Zelenka from doubletroubledaddy.com share the story of his twin journey including:

• How they found out they were expecting twins
• When both twins were in the NICU (and one longer than the other)
• Starting his own dads group
• Being a stay-at-home-dad
• Taking care of twins while a spouse works at home

Transcript

JOE: Well, today on the Dad’s Guide to Twins podcast, I’d like to welcome a special guest, Kevin Zelenka, who blogs over at DoubleTroubledaddy.com. I wanted to invite Kevin on as a fellow father of twins to help share some of his experience that we can learn from. Kevin, welcome to the show.

KEVIN ZELENKA (GUEST): Thanks Joe. Great to be here.

JOE: Wonderful, Kevin. Before we start, if you could just give a quick snapshot of your family, what’s going on in life right now, and then we’ll jump into some details of your twin journey.

KEVIN: Of course. I’m the father of twin boys – they’re about two, almost two and a half now. I’m a stay-at-home father. My wife also works at home, which is kind of nice. We live in Las Vegas, Nevada, and that’s about it. Every day is an adventure with them.

JOE: Every day is an adventure. That’s probably a good summary for two and a half year olds.

KEVIN: Absolutely.

Finding Out About Twins

JOE: So think back to probably about three years ago when y’all found out that you were having twins. Tell us a little bit about how you found out and what your reaction was.

KEVIN: Well, we actually went to IVF. We had a long road to get to where we are now. Had a couple of miscarriages and some fertility issues with my wife. And so we decided to go the IVF route. So we knew there was a chance. We put two eggs in and we knew that they could both take. And I’m glad that they did.

It wasn’t a very enjoyable pregnancy because of what we went through already – we were always waiting for the other shoe to drop, you know? There was no celebration in the sense that we told everybody. We didn’t tell anybody until probably after the first trimester even – until second trimester. We waited as long as possible because, again, going through a couple miscarriages, every single moment was waiting for the other shoe to drop, waiting for what’s going to happen next. There wasn’t really the excitement. We had the excitement in the first two pregnancies we lost. You know, we were excited and we were overwhelmed, and then we were kind of let down. So we kind of missed out on the joys of pregnancy the second time.

JOE: Yeah, I understand. We had several miscarriages as well before our first son was born, and you’re right – you’re always feeling like something is gonna happen. So it makes you kind of gun shy as far as sharing that news. So I absolutely understand that.

Beyond the concerns around miscarriage, what were some of your concerns you had knowing that you were going to have twins?

KEVIN: Cost. It was scary in a sense. We were excited, more than excited. But yeah, it’s just a little apprehension, you know, to worry about cost and being able to make it all work. But I think once we realized that it was what it was – we had two little ones on the way – we got more and more comfortable with the idea. I wasn’t… when I was scared, I mean, briefly scared, but beyond that, I think it just kind of sunk in that we had two little ones on the way, and it was a great feeling, you know?

JOE: Yeah, I echo those same feelings. Scared, but then that kind of propels you to take action and just start getting stuff ready.

KEVIN: Absolutely.

Pregnancy and Preparation

JOE: So now looking back at it, was there something that you wish you would have known during the pregnancy, that you would have gotten ready or done differently?

KEVIN: I wish I would have known that everything was going to be okay, because then we wouldn’t have been so tense. We could have relaxed a little bit more with the pregnancy. But beyond that, not really.

The one thing I did do was I wrote a piece for Twin Diversity called “Surviving the NICU.” We spent some time in the NICU with both boys. And I think knowing what was ahead would have helped a little bit. I mean, being prepared for when they were born, you know. The NICU was a long journey. It was two weeks with one and almost two months with the other. And that was tough, and not knowing how to deal with it, and not knowing how we’d come out of it, even. You know, scary times. I think that if someone could have prepared us a little bit for that, looking back now, it would have made the journey a little bit easier.

JOE: Yeah, I like the theme that you mentioned of “everything’s going to be okay.” It’s going to work out eventually, and we’re going to have surprises along the way, challenges. And there’s so many things that could happen with twins that it can get kind of overwhelming as you’re getting prepared for them.

Let’s talk about your NICU experience a little bit. How far along were your boys in the pregnancy when they were born?

The Birth and NICU Experience

KEVIN: Actually 35 weeks – we made it almost 35 weeks. My wife wasn’t feeling well that morning. We went to go see the perinatologist, they put her on the monitors and the boys looked fine. We went home, she still wasn’t feeling well. She called later on and they told her to go to the hospital because they weren’t open at the time.

We went to the hospital and she went through blood tests and some other tests, and again put her on the monitor and the boys looked okay. And the blood test came back and they said, “Guess what? You’re having the boys tonight.” So she had HELLP syndrome, which is kind of a severe case of preeclampsia. So when her blood test came back, they said, “No, you’re going to be a mom this evening.” So within the hour, she was actually in the OR getting prepped for her C-section. We had no idea that was coming either.

JOE: The C-section – was that a surprise?

KEVIN: The C-section was not as much of a surprise. We knew it was probably pretty likely. And I think she had decided even before this that we were going to go through a C-section because her biggest fear would be to try and have it naturally and then have to go through a C-section anyway. So she thought we might as well just schedule it and get it done with, you know? You hear some of these stories where you try to deliver naturally and the next thing you know, there’s complications and they have to go in anyway. So rather than risk all that, we were going to make the C-section route, but our goal was to wait a couple more weeks anyway.

JOE: Our twins were born with C-section too. Our first son, we were trying to deliver naturally and he got stuck and we had to go to C-section. So it’s just like you’re describing. And so our subsequent births after that, my wife is like, “Yes, we’re just having C-sections. Just plan on it.”

So they’re born at 35 weeks and then you said they spent some time in the NICU. What were some of the complications there?

KEVIN: The youngest of the two actually had a small hole in his heart and a small hole in his lungs, both of which have closed up since. But it was that, and feeding, and the weight – they couldn’t leave until they were a certain weight and they were both eating okay. So like I said, one spent two weeks and my wife spent a week in the hospital besides. But yeah, one spent two weeks and one spent almost two months.

One of the hardest things was actually going home without both of them. And then when we got to bring Carter, the oldest of the two, home, then actually leaving one behind. It was hard enough leaving both behind, but then to actually have one home with us and the other one was still there. So she would go in the morning and I would stay with one at home, and then I’d go in the evening and she’d stay home with the first one. So every day, twice a day, we were both there at one time or another to see and feed the second one. But it was, like I said, that was a long road. That was very, very challenging and very, very trying.

When we went to leave after her week in the hospital, one of the nurses handed us a box of Kleenex, because she knew – how do you leave your kids behind, you know?

JOE: So what were some of the ways that you were able to cope with that – first when you went home alone and then later when you had one boy at home and one boy in the NICU?

KEVIN: Time. Time and talking about it and knowing that there would be a time when they would both be home. Just believing, you know, that’s the biggest thing – just knowing that we would get over it and that they would both be home and things would be fine and believing that.

We’re not overly religious, but even a little bit of prayer. When we went through the complications with the second one, there was a point… I mean, they were small. Carter was five pounds and four ounces and Gavin was three pounds, 13 ounces. And again, with the heart and lung issues, I spent the first few days walking back and forth between my wife’s room in the hospital and NICU with milk, because she was pumping.

There was a point when I was coming back towards her room, and I walked past the chapel. And I knelt down and bawled my eyes out. And I just said, “I don’t know if it’s possible that both of my boys come home with us, but at least help me deal with it.” And of course then they were both home eventually, but it was just hard. It’s just the whole believing that they would both be home and realizing and keeping the faith.

JOE: Well, thank you for sharing that experience.

Coming Home with Twins

JOE: So when you finally get both boys home – like you mentioned, after about two months they’re both home – you’re starting to settle into a routine. What were some of the surprises you had caring for two little ones at the same time?

KEVIN: Their personalities – their different personalities. One goes to bed easy, the other one takes a couple hours to fall asleep. One’s really good eating, the other one a little bit pickier. They’re actually great eaters right now. But even though they’re twins, they’re basically two babies that just happened to be born on the same day. They’re completely different personalities. You’re remembering that – they are completely different.

JOE: Because your boys are fraternal and my girls are identical, and they’re still, like you’re describing, completely opposite of each other. So as far as daily habits and mannerisms, personalities. So you’re right, it’s like two little people just happen to share the same birthday, but very unique.

KEVIN: They had a womb with a view for about nine months, yeah. They shared a close quarters apartment for nine months.

JOE: That’s right. In their case, eight months, yeah.

Work and Childcare Arrangements

JOE: Were you working at this time? Was your wife working? How did you all manage time off from work with the birth and the babies?

KEVIN: My wife was working up until right before they were born. Again, it was the surprise that they were born when they were. I quit about a month before they were born. I knew I was going to stay home with the two of them, and going back and forth to the doctor with her all the time, it was just easier for me just to quit my job. It got harder for her to move around and do things. I quit about a month earlier than I planned on, just to be able to stay home and help take care of her.

The goal was… We had talked about the goal was for me to stay home as a full-time stay-at-home dad. So it’s just rather than working a month later than I did, I quit early just to help facilitate her care before they were born. And then she took extended leave time from work. She had vacation saved up that she had been accruing just for the pregnancy. So she had the leave time that she needed, and then she did partial leave where she had partial pay until she went back, which was kind of nice. And of course I had nothing other than her income.

JOE: So now you said she’s working from home and you’re taking care of the kids at home. So how do you balance one parent working in the house while the other one is taking care of the boys?

KEVIN: It’s actually kind of challenging. They know that she’s not that far away. She’s upstairs and we’re downstairs. They go upstairs for naps, but she can’t go to get a drink of water or something like that because then they all want to run over and go see mom. We have to keep it quiet during the day, in case she’s on the phone, but it’s nice that she doesn’t have to leave for eight or nine hours a day. She’s close enough where if she wants to pop in and say hi during lunch, she can, which is kind of nice. It’s definitely an advantage. It’s definitely something that not many people are able to do – for number one, for me to stay home with them, and then number two, for her to actually work from home.

But she does get a case of the “I miss them,” you know. But it’s been challenging just to try and separate work from the kids. I have to give her credit because she’s very, very good at… she’s very disciplined. She’s very good at managing her time. I know that if I was actually working from home and it was the opposite situation, it’d be hard to stay locked in my office, for example, knowing that my boys were that close.

JOE: Yes, I hear you. Yeah, I’ve been working from home now for about six months and the same thing. I know they’re right on the other side of the wall. You know, I can hear them most of the time, so it’s like… But it is a blessing too, because, you know, I can have lunch with them. I can see them when I take a little break. It’s good and challenging at the same time.

KEVIN: It takes real self-discipline, which my wife has, and I don’t think I would. You know, I don’t think I have that. It’d be hard to… It’d be hard to just focus on work when I know they’re that close. She’s very good at doing that, which I have to give her credit for. Knowing that if something were to happen and they’re crying over something, it takes a strong parent to not open the door and come out instead of just going out.

JOE: That’s true. You try to focus on the work when you hear that, you know.

KEVIN: So I have to give her credit for that.

Building Community – The Dad Group

JOE: So you’ve also been involved with your local dad group. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience?

KEVIN: I actually started the local dad group. It’s hard because all my friends have no kids. So the people that I worked with and I hung out with, all of a sudden I have kids and they just… they stop calling, they stop coming around. My topic of conversation is always going to be, “Well, my boy did this and my boy did that and oh, my kid helped put his clothes on this morning.”

When you become a parent, that’s normal conversation, but your friends are like, “Okay, well, when we’re talking about sports, when we’re talking about what happened at work today, all you want to talk about is kids, and that’s kind of boring for us.” So they just stopped calling, stopped coming around.

And plus, of course, they worked during the day, so here I am, and it’s 10 o’clock in the morning. What do I do? I mean, I’m losing touch with those that I thought were close to me. I need to find another group of friends who can relate to what I’m going through. So that’s our dad’s group. It’s been… it’ll be two years ago this summer. It’s great. We have over 70 members right now.

There’s stay-at-home dads or work-from-home dads or actual working dads who get together on the weekends. We try and do play dates a couple times a month during the week, weekends, at least one weekend a month. We do a family group where we meet up at a park or we meet up at a play place or do some sort of activity with the family. And then once a month, we do a dad’s hangout besides – a chance to get away from the kids.

It’s great because I get to communicate with fathers who have kids older than mine. So if I have questions about what happens when they go through this, I can ask them questions about something that I’m going through now that they’ve gone through a year or two prior. It’s also nice because I see fathers who have kids younger than mine that are asking me questions. Well, how did you deal with trying to break the nighttime bottle habit, or this or that. If it’s a question about potty training, I can ask other dads about it, and questions about things that we had gone through already that they can ask me about. So it’s a good support group.

Another reason I started it is because mom’s groups are pretty non-inclusive of dads. They don’t see us as equals. And they feel uncomfortable with us in their groups. You know, they call them parent groups, but it’s a mommy group – it’s a group that really don’t want dads to be part of it. So I started my own.

JOE: So you take your ball and bat and go home.

KEVIN: I did the same thing. I started my own group. And it’s gone very well. And it’s exciting to meet with dads who have the same philosophy behind child-rearing as you do – as far as being active in a kid’s life.

JOE: That’s wonderful. Congratulations on the success of your group.

KEVIN: Thank you.

JOE: There is a gap that we have as dads finding like-minded fathers that we can ask questions to and share our struggles. I commend you for that. That’s wonderful.

KEVIN: Thank you very much.

When Does It Get Easier?

JOE: So when you look back over these last couple years with your boys – you go through the trials of newborns, infants, toddlers – based on your experience, when did it start to get easier with your boys?

KEVIN: I don’t know if it ever gets easier. It’s just every stage, you have different challenges. I don’t think it’s getting harder or any easier, it’s different. I would like to say that it got easier because they start sleeping through the night, but it’s not easier in the sense that now they’re mobile, they move around and they get into things. You can’t lay them down on the living room floor and expect them to be there when you get back.

So there’s always going to be a set of challenges and those challenges will be unlike the stage before. I don’t think it’s easier, it’s just different.

JOE: That’s good perspective. That makes sense. That’s exactly what we’ve experienced as well. I’m always interested when people ask me when does it get easier because similarly, as you’ve described, it just gets different. You think sleep deprivation in the middle of the night, caring for infants, it can’t get any more difficult, and then something else happens. You master that and then you move on to the next challenge.

KEVIN: Exactly. I don’t think it’s “when does it get easier?” – it gets easier when you have more kids because you kind of have an idea what’s coming. If they’re your first children, like mine – having twins – I hear people say, “Oh, I have a baby and it’s so hard.” I just want to look at them and, excuse the expression, I just want to slap them. It’s like, “You got it easy.” You know, try two.

And that’s the case. I mean, once you have two, having one afterwards is probably a piece of cake. I don’t know – two is definitely a challenge. And once you master that I think you can do anything.

JOE: That’s right. Yeah, it’s very empowering to be a father of twins because you’re like, “I did this – I can do anything, any challenge.”

KEVIN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

What Do You Love Most About Having Twins?

JOE: So what do you love the most about having twins?

KEVIN: Probably not answering questions from outsiders. No, I’m kidding.

I love the way they interact. Everybody talks about twin speak and the fact that they talk to each other and you wonder if they know what they’re saying. They have a brother for life. They have somebody next to them who does the exact same thing they do for life.

I have brothers, but I’ve got brothers who are younger than I am. Here’s somebody who actually, every step of the way, from the day they’re born on, they have a relationship with someone that’s been there. I love watching them interact. Sometimes there are good days where they play together nicely. There are other days where they argue and fight, and that’s gonna happen. But I love watching the two of them play together.

JOE: Yeah, that’s one of my favorite things too. We had two boys already when we had our twins. And so just to kind of contrast the differences of how our girls interact with each other versus the boys. It’s very interesting how twins build that relationship early and how they have their quirks. And you’re right, they’re the best of friends, and then they can be fighting like cats and dogs the next minute, so it’s always an adventure.

KEVIN: And that’s the thing. I mean, I had a brother who was five years younger than I am, and I have another one eight years younger, and one even younger than that. And my brother who was five years younger, I mean, sure, we were great brothers, we got to play together, we did a lot of things together, but there’s an age difference, so there are differences in interests. You know, when I graduated from school, I left home, so there’s a period of time when he was younger when we didn’t play together ’cause he was too young to play with me. And there’s a period of time where I was gone, where I left after high school.

So where my boys, from the minute they’re born on, they’re side by side, and they’re the same age. So they’ll have different likes and dislikes, but not because they’re different ages, but because they’re different people.

JOE: That’s right. Yeah, we’ve seen that with our girls as well. Like we signed them both up for soccer and the first day of soccer, one of the girls absolutely loves it, and the other one says, “I’m not playing soccer.” So it’s always fun to… you think you got it figured out, and then they go different directions.

Potty Training

JOE: So you mentioned potty training. Are you still working on potty training your boys right now?

KEVIN: I haven’t started yet. I read some stories where people start before they’re two, I read other ones that say you should wait ’til they’re three. Some say start too soon and you’ll damage them. A lot of people say it’s too soon to start. I don’t know what to believe. There’s too many resources out there that tell you conflicting stories.

My biggest thing right now is kind of waiting until they kind of tell us. There’s some days where one of them will say that he’s stinky, and the other day he’ll go without telling you that he went number two. So I think when they start realizing what they’re doing – if they can tell me that they’ve gone, that’s a good step. So we have the potty chairs, we just haven’t done much with them as of yet. And again, they’re not even two and a half yet. So I know it’s coming quick. We just haven’t quite got there yet.

JOE: Yeah, I think that’s a good approach. That is a big milestone. We waited for our girls to be able to communicate with us. That’s a whole key to the puzzle.

Marriage Advice

JOE: So when you look back so far on your twin journey, what’s one piece of advice you can give to other dads on helping to keep their marriage strong through this whole journey from pregnancy up to toddlers?

KEVIN: Don’t forget where you were before the kids. We’re lucky enough that I have my in-laws very close to us. We’ve almost had to retrain them – not that they didn’t know how to take care of kids, but retrain them maybe our way. But utilizing them as babysitters, not a lot, but just enough to give us a little break every once in a while – whether it be just a lunch in the afternoon together. Our birthdays are this month so we’re actually escaping for two nights together.

JOE: That’s great.

KEVIN: So it’s kind of a chance to rekindle a little bit. And Grandma and Grandpa love it because they love spending time with the boys, so it’s a good chance for Grandma and Grandpa to spend time with them and for my wife and I to kind of take a deep breath and relax without the boys.

I mean I love them and I love being around them, but there are times when you just need to take a breath, you know? It’s refreshing. It’s kind of redoing yourself and getting back to them with a fresh approach and a fresh attitude. And that’s a big thing. Whether it’s watching a movie together after they go to sleep, whether it’s just a walk, whatever it is – just don’t take each other for granted and be able to spend a little time together. Remember that you dated at one time. You were madly in love at one time before kids. Remember what those times were like and remember that that person is still that person.

JOE: That’s right. That’s wonderful advice. That’s worked for us as a couple as well. Making sure we set aside time for date night to help maintain that relationship. And now it’s become a habit, the kids expect it, and we plan for it. And it’s definitely been the key to helping maintain the marriage.

Contact Information

JOE: So Kevin, as we wrap up our conversation today, if listeners want to connect with you, what’s the best way to get in touch?

KEVIN: The best place to get in touch – I don’t write as often as I would like to, but there’s new stuff on there every week – is doubletroubledaddy.com. Double trouble, as in my two little hellions at times. Otherwise I’m at @doubletrbldaddy on Twitter, or you can check me on Facebook under Vegas Dads or Kevin Zelenka at Facebook.

JOE: Wonderful. Well, thank you for being on the show today, Kevin. We really appreciate you giving us some insight into being a father of twins and sharing some of the details of your experience so far.

KEVIN: No problem, Joe. It was great to talk to you. I definitely enjoyed it.

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